Outside Toledo, Ohio, on Sunday, Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., was
approached by plumber Joe Wurzelbacher, a big, bald man with a goatee
who asked Obama if he believes in the American dream. What follows is an actual transcript.
Link
"I'm getting ready to buy a company that makes 250 to 280 thousand
dollars a year," Wurzelbacher said. "Your new tax plan is going to tax
me more, isn't it?"
Obama said, "First off, you would get a 50% tax credit so you'd get a
tax cut for your healthcare costs….. if your revenue is above 250 –
then from 250 down, your taxes are going to stay the same. It is true
that from 250 up – from 250 – 300 or so, so for that additional
amount, you’d go from 36 to 39%, which is what it was under Bill
Clinton. And the reason why we’re doing that is because 95% of small
businesses make less than 250. So what I want to do is give them a tax
cut. I want to give all these folks who are bus drivers, teachers,
auto workers who make less, I want to give them a tax cut. And so what
we’re doing is, we are saying that folks who make more than 250 that
that marginal amount above 250 – they’re gonna be taxed at a 39
instead of a 36% rate.”
Responded Wurzelbacher, "the reason I ask you about the American
dream, I mean I've worked hard. I'm a plumber. I work 10-12 hours a
day and I'm buying this company and I'm going to continue working that
way. I'm getting taxed more and more while fulfilling the American dream."
"Well," said Obama, "here's a way of thinking about it. How long have
been a plumber?"
Wurzelbacher said 15 years.
Obama says, “Over the last 15 years, when you weren’t making 250, you
would have been given a tax cut from me, so you’d actually have more
money, which means you would have saved more, which means you would
have gotten to the point where you could build your small business
quicker than under the current tax code. So there are two ways of
looking at it – I mean one way of looking at it is, now that you’ve
become more successful through hard work – you don’t want to be taxed
as much.”
“Exactly," Wurzelbacher said.
Obama continued, “But another way of looking at it is 95% of folks who
are making less than 250, they may be working hard too, but they’re
being taxed at a higher rate than they would be under mine. So what
I’m doing is, put yourself back 10 years ago when you were only making
whatever, 60 or 70. Under my tax plan you would be keeping more of
your paycheck, you’d be paying lower taxes, which means you would have
saved…Now look, nobody likes high taxes."
"No," said Wurzelbacher.
"Of course not," said Obama. "But what’s happened is that we end up –
we’ve cut taxes a lot for folks like me who make a lot more than 250.
We haven’t given a break to folks who make less, and as a consequence,
the average wage and income for ordinary folks, the vast majority of
Americans, has actually gone down over the last eight years. So all I
want to do is – I’ve got a tax cut. The only thing that changes, is
I’m gonna cut taxes a little bit more for the folks who are most in
need and for the 5% of the folks who are doing very well - even though
they’ve been working hard and I appreciate that – I just want to make
sure they’re paying a little bit more in order to pay for those other
tax cuts. Now, I respect the disagreement. I just want you to be clear
– it’s not that I want to punish your success – I just want to make
sure that everybody who is behind you – that they’ve got a chance at
success too.”
Wurzelbacher said it seemed as though Obama might support a flat tax.
Obama says, “you know, I would be open to it except here’s the problem
with a flat tax is that if you actually put a flat tax together, in
order for it to work and replace all the revenue that we’ve got, you’d
probably end up having to make it like about a 40% sales tax. I mean
that’s the value added, making it up. Now some people say 23 or 25,
but in truth when you add up all the revenue that would need to be
raised, you’d have to slap on a whole bunch of sales taxes on. And I
do believe for folks like me who have worked hard, but frankly also
been lucky, I don’t mind paying just a little bit more than the
waitress that I just met over there who’s things are slow and she can
barely make the rent."
Obama said, "My attitude is that if the economy’s good for folks from
the bottom up, it’s gonna be good for everybody. If you’ve got a
plumbing business, you’re gonna be better off if you’re gonna be
better off if you’ve got a whole bunch of customers who can afford to
hire you, and right now everybody’s so pinched that business is bad
for everybody and I think when you spread the wealth around, it’s good
for everybody."
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